DeFi Ecosystem - Discussion

I see that some of the points are touched in https://academy.ivanontech.com/products/defi-101/categories/2382218/posts/7961557, basically the same graph I posted before of the world’s money supply, but I think it needs a bit better deep dive into why the derivatives market has so much more money than there is in the world’s supply, seems to me like a huge bubble waiting to pop.

I do see value in descentralizing things like insurance and peer to peer loans but as @cryptologos mentions, how good is the protocol if it can’t be used to pay a mortgage or some real world asset. And as @pazzi says

even accessing to this kind of financial instrument if it’s then converted to fiat it becomes a taxable event. I guess in this case there should be some kind of adoption of the protocol, but again, a transfer of ownership of such assets would in theory incur in a taxable event, would be great to understand at this level the implications of using such protocols for these kind of asset transfers.

I am getting the feeling that technology is awesome but needs adoption for real world, otherwise the protocols will be used purely for speculation and in some ways deviate the whole purpose of reaching a trustless ecosystem that we can rely upon and in turn become a huge headache for small investors and people that don’t really get who wins and who loses in this zero sum game.

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I recommend looking into mStable protocol which seeks to provide stable coin backed by a basket of other stable coins. The goal being to reduce risk of losing money due to any single stable token in the basket losing its peg permanently.

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Good questions! I can offer my perspective here. I think DeFi is really useful actually but not yet for the “average joe” or to borrow shopping money. For example if you look at Compound here are some things it lets you do:

  1. Earn interest on idle coins you’re hodling.
  2. Borrow a new token while maintain exposure to the collateral (useful for hedging if you need to maintain exposure to Bitcoin but need/want to use ETH in the short-term; also useful for speculation if you believe, in this example, that bitcoin will go up long term)
  3. Effectively short a token, both for hedging risk or speculation. For example, if I have a lot of ETH locked in some other dapp for x number of days and I want to cover the risk of loss if ETH goes down, I can lend wBTC, borrow ETH, sell the ETH for more wBTC. Then I’m able to lock the price of ETH at today’s rate and after x number of days I can pay back the loan with the newly unlocked ETH).

These things were not really possible before and these are just one of many uses I may not be smart enough to come-up with. It’s a really good starting point and building for more complex financial products. As for the average guy using it, I don’t agree that online banking is too complicated for the average joe since the industry has been growing very quickly, especially among millenials. My expectation is that the Defi products will be used in the background of other application so the average person may be interacting with these defi protocols via their online banks without ever knowing about it or how it works.

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In my opinion DeFi as it is today is not really for undercollaterized debt (borrowing to buy a car, for example) but it is really important for risk management (or yolo speculation :stuck_out_tongue:). To do undercollaterized loans in Defi exclusively on-chain probably will never work since you need to trust the borrower and you cannot punish them somehow. But I can some new projects coming along using things like KYC, oracles, 3rd party risk assessors, and collection agencies to extend loans to average people where the investors are just people like us using crypto via a smart contract that coordinates the moving pieces.

REN , Kusama and the complete Polkadot ecosystem please @amadeobrands

You guys have a good point, I can understand that it is fully possible that DeFi with protocols like Ren, Compound, AAVE, Maker, Balancer etc will “Eat the banks”, but how?

Interesting thoughts, whould love an answer on your comment and questions!

@Rafael21 great insight. DO you use Defi for all those? Especially shorting tokens (3).

Please tell me how 3 works. I’m not sure I understand. You have ETH locked in a dapp - ok (let’s say 1ETH = 200). How do you get wBTC so you can lend it later? Do you use the ETH as a collateral to borrow wBTC and then you lend that wBTC to borrow more ETH, because your original ETH stack is locked? And why do you borrow ETH to buy more wBTC? How do you protect against your original ETH stack going down in value to less than $200? I only see the upside here - you ultimately end up with one locked ETH stack and one ETH stack you can sell in case ETH goes up to $300 therefore you end up with more wBTC than you started with.

I have used it for shorting before yes :slight_smile: . I’ll give you real life example. I’m now holding and staking SNX with synthetix (let’s say, for example, 2,000 SNX). I think the project is great and has a lot of upside potential but sometimes the prices goes up too high too quickly and the goes back down. When I see the price go up too much (in my opinion) and I want to lock my profit in SNX but I don’t want to unstake my SNX and sell it (gas price too high, I don’t want to lose out on the nice weekly staking rewards, and other reasons). So instead I take my ETH and other tokens I’m hodling, put them in Aave to lend, borrow 2,000 SNX, and sell it for more ETH or a stablecoin like USDC. Now if price of SNX goes up, my debt goes up in value but so does my stack of SNX. If price of SNX goes down then the value of my stack goes down but value of debt is also lower and I already locked my profit when I exchanged the borrowed SNX for USDC. So you see in this case I’m long SNX and short SNX by same amount so I don’t care what happens to price of SNX (I’m market neutral) but I still get my weekly rewards from Synthetix.

As you noted above I still have exposure to the ETH or other token I used as collateral, which needs to be managed, but I was still exposed to these tokens before I lent in Aave (you are always going to be exposed to some token if you are in crypto, whether it’s ETH, USDC, or BTC). I’m not using this strategy right now because I want to be exposed to SNX going up in price (and it has :D) but I’m considering doing it again to lock in some profit.

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great @Rafael21. Fascinating! by the way, are you in the US?

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My home is in Miami, FL but I’m living in Europe for now :smiley:

Payment solutions can be considered defi as its a service traditionally handled by financial institutions.

Lightning network, Matic and OmiseGo are my suggestions for this category

@Rafael21 do you file taxes in US? i am curious what the situation is with those DEXes and staking. I am still new to the concept. Do you have any information? I live in the US.

Great questions thank you for this and good that you questions these points.
Let me try to give an answer.

  1. Who is actually DeFi for? It seems so complex that even an educated person could get lost in all these protocols and tooling. Also, the space changes so fast that it feels like a full time job to follow it and be up to date.

It is a full-time job at this moment and you can get a huge knowledge advantage by boosting your DeFi knowledge stack. There already are a lot of new job opportunities forming and will only grow more.
See: https://unchainedpodcast.com/why-bitcoin-now-mike-novogratz-and-raoul-pal-on-the-single-greatest-brand-of-the-last-10-years/ They have it on the reader industry is still small …

  1. Is it built only to serve long term crypto hodlers? Is it for traders? Is it for speculators? Hedge funds?

At this moment DeFi is having a wale problem where it is now evolving into something mostly useful for wales and bigger investors. You now need to have at least 10K USD and take one clear position and stay there for a year to have a good APY … if you move too many times GAS fees kill profits. I see this changing over time and there is innovation needed from within the community to change this … what I do not understand is that we do not see more creative state channel usage that will reduce GAS cost. When more real-world assets will bridge onto DeFi we will see more and more use cases for day to day usage where people will not directly know what blockchain or DeFi is.

  1. How does it reach people who actually need a loan? If i can take over-collateralized loan, it means I can actually afford what I want to buy, I just don’t want to sell my crypto. But let’s be honest. People who need loans cannot over collateralized.

Undercoletrilzied loans are the hello world of this new decentralized financial system.
You can see some innovation in over-collateralized loans see: https://twitter.com/StaniKulechov/status/1280500974176612352

  1. Who’s gonna actually put their money in it? I mean money that you can’t afford to lose. Right now all my money that i cannot afford to lose is in a centralized bank, but i know that if it goes bust, I am insured by the government and they’ll pay me back. Which means, I am ultimately placing a long bet on the government and society. I would be very scared putting money I can’t afford to lose in a protocol where it could get hacked or I can make a ‘procedural’ mistake, or even it will get so updated in 1 year that I won’t know what to do with my money after. My feeling is that only people as educated as Amadeo Brands would do that, but this is a lot less than 1% of the people on the planet.

Never invest more then your willing to lose … aldo I see ways of almost no loss forming in the DeFi space look at https://nexusmutual.io/ where you can get a loan with insurance.

  1. I can never see the ‘average guy’ using it one day. Some people have hard time understanding a basic high yield savings account in a not very common centralized bank. To give you an example: people still prefer to hold their money in a common centralized bank with 0.01% interest rate as opposed to in an online bank with customer service and 3% interest, because it is more complicated and less common to do the latter.

It is not about the YIELD it is the freedom that people will educate them selfs for so that they will survive the theft the government is doing at the moment. When there is a correct incentive I believe that people are smarter then you think… Also wallets like Argent give a great UI https://www.argent.xyz/. Also, I hope my DeFi 101-201 courses will help people to educate them self.

  1. Also, why has DeFi space skyrocketed in the past 3 months. Any particular catalyst? Who uses it today? Who puts all those money in it? I can’t understand.

Right now it is a rebasing of value in the market since the protocols prove them selfs to work and be secure + there are a lot of developments and big VC are now standing ready to jump in if it validates itself more. https://twitter.com/amadeobrands/status/1280904033318961152

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re taxes I’m still figuring those things myself. Government is very slow with guidance and it’s still really unclear how taxes should work. I plan to use things like crypto.tax or cointracker to calculate taxes and hope thats good enough. Best of luck.

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DerivaDEX is a decentralized exchange for derivative contracts built on top of Ethereum.

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Thank you @amadeobrands for taking the time to provide such elaborate answers to my questions point by point! I haven’t tried Argent yet, but I will for sure. Thank you for the tip. About to start DeFi201 soon. Great courses!

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@amadeobrands What do you think about Adam Cochran’s incendiary tweet on MKR: https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamScochran/status/1252400120458403844 I read you’re a MakerDAO ambassador so I’m sure you’ve got something to reply to this! :slight_smile:

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I just got involved with crypto.com project MCO thats paying rewards to stake and have a utility where they bridge current payment systems with visa and crypto to allow people to spend crypto on things and earn rewards like regular credit cards

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I hadn’t seen your comment before I posted this:

https://forumtest.ivanontech.com/t/keep-learning-in-the-defi-space/11866/182?u=przpgo

I do have a similar opinion but I would love to hear @amadeobrands hence I am just a noob in the space

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